Revised: 2011.3.12Does “bad-upbringing” create a sociopath?
Upbringing will not make a psychopath, nor prevent one .
What defines “bad-upbringing” anyway? What defines “good-upbringing”?
Based on the fact that it’s genetic, passing from one generation to the next, it only seems logical that a psychopath would be raised by a parental psychopath. Since the elder psychopath is incapable of the emotions needed for bonding or nurturing, the majority of psychopaths would likely have an upbringing that was dysfunctional at best (by at least one parent).
The one scenario in which that would prove wrong is if the bad gene was inherited by a carrier-only parent, someone carrying the bad gene in a dormant state and not afflicted with one of the personality disorders.
No psychopath would be a model parent, other than in their public persona.
Generations
My paternal grandmother, dad’s mom, was a mean, demanding woman. She would come into our home and unjustly criticize my mom in front of us kids, and my dad would even join in.
My mom didn’t deserve it and they often drove her to tears. As I grew older, I liked my grandmother less and less. By the time I became an adult, I wanted nothing to do with her. My dad’s relationship to her was very similar to my oldest sister’s (Kathy) relationship with dad: very dysfunctional, and borderline sickening.
I recently discovered that my grandmother’s brother was simply known as trouble. Just plain bad. I don’t know any details of his activities, but I don’t believe knowing much more is critical to my research. For some reason, my grandmother, for at least part of her youth, grew up at a convent.
My sister Kathy was treated very special by my dad, but I believe that she controlled him until the day he died.
Al was a slug, similar to my dad, and was never involved with any outdoor activities, such as team sports. I do not recall him having a circle of friends. My main memories of him were sitting in front of the TV with a mixing-sized bowl filled with ice cream. Other than sharing a room with Alan growing up, I can’t say I really knew him.
My other sister, Marcia, was a middle child as I was, but she was a girl, and dad seemed to go light in general on both sisters — and my brother for that matter. I always figured that dad learned his lesson from me that he needed to treat his next son differently if he wanted any kind of relationship with him. But I do not see it that way anymore.
To say this easier, my siblings were treated relatively OK, but I was always treated as an unwanted outcast. My mom was never treated much better.
Being biological, hence genetically hereditary, indicates at least one parent was also a psychopath, or at least a carrier. And as being a psychopath, that parent most likely had very few positive traits of being a good parent. Remember,
There is no such thing as a “normal” person, as everyone’s brain is just wired differently.
Here’s what the esteemed authorities say:
“According to Dr. Robert Hare, the consensus among researchers in this area is that
There have also been brain scans of true diagnosed psychopaths. Here’s the report based on multiple test subjects:
“Data in the literature report a reduction in prefrontal gray matter volume, gray matter loss in the right superior temporal gyrus, amygdala volume loss, a decrease in posterior hippocampal volume, an exaggerated structural hippocampal asymmetry, and an increase in callosal white matter volume in psychopathic individuals.
These findings suggest that psychopathy is associated with
“If it’s hereditary, then why aren’t you a psychopath?”
Damn lucky.
She experienced a drastic personality change and became a pathological liar. When I caught her in a lie, she cut-off all communication with me and joined my sister in assassinating my character.
My true character has no resemblance to anyone else in my family, other than my late-mom. I can’t explain it, but I do have a some good theories. Many, if not most conditions can skip a generation. Consider physical diseases, such as diabetes, Alzheimer’s, and cancer, and how they run in families.
Kathy has always had dogs, too, but to her, they’ve been trophies, something to brag about, but shows no compassion for. She does not connect with dogs, nor did my dad. Most of those afflicted with that range of personality disorders have a difficult time relating to kids or pets.
Dad was so bad at connecting with dogs, that his actions permitted their dog — a Springer Spaniel — to become the alpha in the family. One day the dog thought dad was a threat to mom, and the dog attacked. Mom jumped up to protect dad, and was accidentally bitten. Dad didn’t even get a scratch. His inability to relate to dogs further endorsed his inability to relate to his own kids, specifically me.
My sister Kathy is an extremely evil individual. It’s amazing to me that people who are so fake can amass such a loyal following. “Shallow” is probably the nicest word that comes to mind.
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February 11th, 2011 at 01:10
I personally think it is a genetic defect. Some people are born without conscience or empathy – otherwise innate to the species.
What sort of crazy abusive upbringing would you need to erase these traits from a person? I dread to think.
The lack of empathy would make a person unable to relate to animals. A sociopath cannot manipulate an animal the way they could a human.
Perhaps another sign of a sociopath or psychopath is their inability to relate to animals or very young children/babies. My ex-business partner hates (yes, an inappropriate level of dislike) animals and children. He acted as if they were put on earth just to torment him.
February 17th, 2011 at 21:26
TK
I agree. I have no personal experience, whatsoever, to consider any other options. In all candor, I believe it is an illness, a mental illness, plain and simple. I’ve personally witness two generations growing into young adults — up-bringing has nothing to do with it.
“A sociopath cannot manipulate an animal the way they could a human.”
That’s so true. As I’ve said many times: I wish more people were like dogs. The world would be a better place.
February 20th, 2011 at 22:59
Larry.
I am so glad to have found this site. I have perused many sites and they just don’t seem to get it. Not for high magnitude cases like mine. My mother was complicit in a murder in the 60′s and she later hounded my father who stood by her during her prosecution and acquittal, and he committed suicide.
Like you say. Unfortunately all I speak is true. Were it not so I wouldn’t be here. I have been branded a troll. I have been called a liar. All for the actions of another. Believe me or don’t.
I will be spending much time here.
Thank you for ramping things up a notch for those that have experienced the unthinkable.
February 21st, 2011 at 02:30
Doug,
I have no reason not to believe you. To me, you describe the believable, even though for most it is unthinkable.
I look forward to more of your story.
Hang in there.
February 21st, 2011 at 08:05
Hey Larry. Good to hear from you.
I have been on a yahoo acon site and they just thought I was a troll. The more I tell the more unbelievable she sounds. Hell I can’t believe it and I was there. After my father’s death, she dumped me off to live at my grandmothers. Which was really a god send. Sort of had holiday contact until last year when I moved in with her to help her back on her feet after having a stroke. Biggest mistake of my life. She gas-lighted me out the door and back to my ex wife. It go’s on and on and on.
She slept with every friend of my father’s and her second husband and every husband of every friend of her’s. She was very nice looking in her day and can feign such innocence when she wants. It’s nauseating.
I have No contact with her, but as she was devaluing and discarding me on the way out, I let let know of all the stuff that I remember. She told me I was crazy and must have dreamed it up on drugs. All of her murder stuff was in the papers. It was all in Dallas and we were on TV, etc.
So I dug through the Dallas Morning News archives and downloaded it and sent it to her friends. She was doing a preemptive strike on me to my friends and her neighbors. I just sent a note and asked if they thought I dreamed this up?
I am starting to ramble. She makes me crazy.
February 21st, 2011 at 08:25
This is for TK.
If a bad upbringing is the foundation for becoming a sociopath, I would be Hannibal Lector.
February 21st, 2011 at 10:45
Doug,
You sound as if you’ve been through hell, and still are. Unfortunately, it usually lasts a lifetime.
Regarding TK’s comment, I believe she has come to the conclusion that it is genetic, and not up-bringing.
I agree with you, though, that if it were from upbringing, I don’t know where I’d be. My late-dad and my siblings are all afflicted, and from childhood, I was the outcast. I can candidly say, though, I’m far smarter than all my siblings. My ex-wife, though, is a very intelligent sociopath, and that makes her very dangerous.
Good luck.
February 21st, 2011 at 21:37
I don’t want to get on here and just piss and moan. I am just glad there is a place that will call these people the sociopath’s that they are.
NPD just doesn’t do them justice.
February 21st, 2011 at 21:51
Doug,
I never was one to complain, but having one’s character destroyed is an acceptable reason to “piss and moan”… IMHO. They get away with murder, and since I believe sociopaths hover in high places, including our justice system, I believe they’ll be getting away with it for a long time to come.
February 21st, 2011 at 21:58
I tell you what. I have seen my mother betray and use everyone around her all my life. I somehow got the idea I was exempt. That I wasn’t important enough for her to waste her time on. I was just the scapegoat of last resort.
July 11th, 2011 at 23:16
Hey I just read the article and just wanted to share my experiences.
I am 19 right now, I am Chinese Canadian and my family came to Canada when I was 5. I’ve diagnosed my dad with a special type of psychopathy that I believe is under narcissistic psychopath. At the same time, because of a cultural difference (he was raised in China) a lot of western articles such as this one doesn’t quite explain his case.
My dad, to be put simply, never grew into a man. He is not very tall, skinny as a twig, a repugnant face, and has very bad habits (sits like an animal twisting his leg, very bad hygiene, essentially lives like a pig). I was raised by him for 6 years from grade 6 to grade 11. At first in grade 6 I was doing very well, straight As, but he would make my life miserable and although I was just a child, I often felt like when we argue he gets more immature and childish than I do. I remember in grade 6, after achieving 6As and a B and a C+, I was so excited to show my report card and he would yell at me and say things like “you got a C+? you are a failure to our family, to my name” and I told him that living with him made me very unhappy as a child but he would twist every argument into his immature ways. The whole 6 years that I was raised by him when I was in grade 6 till grade 11, I was abused physically and mentally and I never came to grips with it until recently (now I am 19 and have been living with my mom for almost 2 years now). I never understood why I started growing white hair at such a young age and why my health was so bad and my acne wasnt just acne, but my whole complexion of my face was pale and grey. I’ve diagnosed that to be stress, pressure, and negative environment of my father.
Only now have I slowly realized how evil my father is. Everytime we argued even when I was right, he would make me feel bad and feel guilty and make it seem like everything is my fault that he only came to Canada because of me. He told me my mother abandoned me for 6 years because she doesnt like our family, and made himself to seem like the heroic father struggling to save his family. Everyone outside our family felt bad for him and thought I was an immature kid. He would drive me to English tutor (I never wanted it) and make me take piano (which I am thankful for) but he would use that as leverage to build his persona. He would be like “look all ive done for you” and people would think hes the perfect father who brings musical talents into me. Anything I succeed in, he takes all credit and makes sure I know that I only succeeded because of him. Its due to this that he KILLED my passion for piano. I made many youtube videos of songs I liked and he would condemn me for it because he wanted me to spend my time only playing classical music. Only now as I am writing this am I coming to grips of how fucked up my dad was and still is.
I live with my mother now in a nearby city. At times when I was living with him, I realize now that I projected my pain onto other people online. I would go play games like Runescape and do fucked up things because of the fucked up things my dad would do. But now I realize, I am not a psychopath like him. Ive experienced love and have had my heart broken and cried about it. I’m a human being but I think this whole experience makes me a lot stronger. What I have not mentioned is my current largest problem: I feel like starting a few months ago when I started to grow mentally and realize the bigger picture of things, that I have to essentially start a new life almost.
This is why:
While I was abused physically and mentally during his care, I feel like all the friends I had (not very many) during that time were damaged too. Now that Ive lived 2 years outside his care and have lived one year in university by myself, Ive adapted to regular social norms that Ive always wanted so now when I hang out with my old friends, I feel like we see things differently and that I can see how damaged and dysfunctional they are. They have no real confidence or self esteem and they do not even know the route to build it as I have learned, I have tried helping them but they are still too naive (I am naive also but they are like babies who have never left mother’s pen).
My second main concern is: I am still young so I have outgrown my past and I am starting to learn and grow. My mother has suffered his fucked up ways for about 20 years, and I believe its made a toll on my mom. My mom is strong, she took me out of my dads care, but my family has NEVER been functional. I have never had a happy moment in my family, except for one christmas when I was given a gameboy and I was happy for a brief moment. My dad has used my mom AND her family for money and a lot of other things.
He actually only agreed to take care of me in grade6 because 1)he commited something illegal in China and wasnt allowed back in China, and 2) he actually ‘said’ to my mom at that time (i wasnt aware of this till now) but he said to her he doesnt will only take care of me if she sends him at least $2500CAD a month. So my mom was abused by him much more than me actually, and she slaved away in China just to put up money so he could lie to me and say that he earned the money and then try to make me hate my mom.
So my mom is a fuckin hero and she’s saved me. In these 2 years, Ive been working out and doing lots of physical exercise and have put on almost 30pounds and I have become a lot healthier and happier and I currently go to university of toronto and am doing well in my studies. I am currently trying to move away from my old friends and make new friends who fit the “new me” and so I am learning my identity and building my self esteem and learning who I am and what I want from this life.
But my mother on the other hand, I feel like she has no self esteem and a very weak sense of self (either from my dads abuse or maybe from the fact that shes a woman) so sometimes when she laughs at things I think she is a little bit crazy. She same kind of ‘laugh’ or craziness that I see in a lot of my old asian friends who I feel are damaged because I made friends with them WHILE I was damaged and if we became good friends, the apple shouldnt fall far from the tree. I feel like my mom is damaged too because of that, and so although she is at a good weight and pretty for her age, she has no self esteem and doesnt buy clothes for herself and feels as if she is worthless (but she would never say it outloud, I just feel it living with her). She is too kind to strangers and other people (too empathetic perhaps from feeling pain herself and I feel like this too, but I am slowly building myself and forgetting the past). How do I help my mother? Sorry for the long read haha, first time typing this shit out
October 5th, 2011 at 12:29
Larry, don’t you think that a family of sociopaths wouldn’t want to groom one of the offspring to be the target?
What fun is it if everyone is a sociopath, is what I mean… and I’m just speculating, but it does seem to me that every family I’ve seen like this, has ONE (count ‘em — ONE) scapegoat.
Yes, that was me in my family. I was also the peacekeeper, the diplomatic one. I feel that I was trained for this role. It was very subtle conditioning.
October 5th, 2011 at 13:54
Steph,
You ask a tough question. Who knows what goes on inside a sociopath’s head?
But, if you feel emotions and don’t think like a sociopath, then you were not born that way. I don’t believe a sociopath can be groomed to be a target, so I think you just missed the “bad gene” and they took advantage of you.
October 5th, 2011 at 14:05
Rocky,
I truly do not know how you can help you mom except for constant encouragement. Give her praise for the things she helped you become. Stay in touch with her and be positive. Avoid the bad things from the past. Ultimately, you can only provide encouragement, but it is up to her to change.
October 6th, 2011 at 06:04
Larry,
The more I read and think about the sociopaths in my life, the more I’m convinced that genetics plays a much larger role than people realize or are willing to accept. As well, I have 3 children — teenagers — (including a pair of identical twins), and they are all different personalities (but the twins are similar in some interesting ways). I have to believe that much of our personalities are inborn. I also have my own very early memories (infancy) and pretty much what I’m saying is that I am who I am, and always have been.
However… I know that the environment plays some role. Speaking for myself, I have been aware of some non-empathetic tendencies from time to time (ability to compartmentalize) and also strong empathy. Certainly I have the ability to feel and express genuine remorse, and guilt, shame, etc. which I think are “normal.” I know I am not a sociopath. But I do see the continuum in myself and my family and in my extremely sociopathic ex-husband. It is a matter of degree, more than an either-or thing. But also there is a line that seems to mark — absolutely, yes, this is a sociopath. And another one that says — no way, definitely not.
I am seeing it sort of as a forked path, and some people are born one way, some another, and some somewhere in between, where the experiences we have and choices we make over time will set us more firmly on one of the two paths.
But absolutely, I am convinced that genetics is responsible for a very large part of who we are. And some of those genes, in some people, are so strong, that there really is NO HOPE for change. That, I think, is the part that people are reluctant to accept — the “no hope” part.
Change requires willingness — and that is one thing I think is genetically missing from true sociopaths.
Your website name is very apt. If a sociopath tells lies some or most (but not all) of the time — does that make them a liar, or a partial liar, or a sometimes honest person? I think it makes them a liar. You can’t be partially truthful — that doesn’t count. But I think sociopaths get away with partial truthtelling. It is like a form of hypnosis or brainwashing on the rest of us. If they told 100% lies, all the time, then they would not get away with it so easily.
February 20th, 2012 at 14:29
Larry, I’ve written this before in another post here on Country of Liars (wish I could find it easily, in order to copy and paste of to provide the link), but the works of Dr. Gabor Mate, Canadian psychiatrist (BC, same province as Dr. Richard Hare, godfather of psychopathy, and the creator of the 20 point psychopathy checklist), and son of Hungarian Holocaust survivors, Dr. James Fallon, UC Irvine neuroscientist who’s studied the brains of psychopaths for over 20 years, and now, Dr. Sebastian Seung, MIT prof. of physics and neuroscience, whose new book, Connectomes, just came out, have all conjectured, and proven (somewhat), that we are more than our genes, and that environmental factors and life choices can definitely override genetic predispostion.
Further, that due to environmental factors in utero, (often a narcissistic and sociopathic husband will abuse his wife at her most vulnerable times, like during pregnancy, which, in turn, causes the poisonaous cortisols and other stress hormones to course through his wife’s body and then, wash the developing human in the same poisons in utero), when a human appears, on the surface the be “born that way,” yes, he or she was born that way, but it was due to the mother’s stress hormones already messing up the fetus’ brain – an environmental factor initiated by the abusive husband – not because of genetic defects.
In addition, they are finding that the brain is way more plastic (changeable / malleable), way older than ever thought before.
In other words, there’s hope, and, as Seung says in his Ted.com lecture, “We are more than our genes!”
That said, in the spirit of better safe than sorry, the best flow chart is to first respond to sociopathic behavior in others as set in stone and unchangeable. This way, our overly empathic and looking-for-the-best-in-others-while-ignoring-their-worsts selves will be less likely to become enmired in relationships that will harm us and steal decades from us.
And so….it’s both.
May 7th, 2012 at 19:17
I have learned the hard way that my younger sister is a sociopath after years of hurt and confusion caused by her behavior. But looking back on our childhood, I really think my parents heavily contributed to her sociopathy by being her disciples, defenders and protectors.
They ALWAYS sided with her, and my mom still does to this day. As kids, my sister “the baby” would set me and our older brothers up by provoking us and when we would retaliate, she would scream and run to our mom for attention and sympathy. Then punishment would follow, but never for her. BTW…we were all about the same size. This pattern worked over and over throughout our years of growing up in the same household.
I was referred to as “her” or “she”…as in “she started it” “it was her”, etc. So I was the scapegoat any time there was an altercation among the two of us. I remember my surprise in high school when she came home and told my mom that everyone at school was saying I was a “druggy” (which couldn’t have been further from the truth). She once told a teacher/coach of mine that I was going on a ski trip with my boyfriend…that one was true, but was it any of his business? It was certainly awkward having him questioning me about it. She would say she saw my boyfriend with another girl to cause me to dump him.
I never questioned that she may be lying…I was so naive and trusting. She would flirt with any guy I was dating, and date them as soon as we broke up. I’m pretty sure it was HER pursuing them, not the other way around. For example, I broke up with a long-time boyfriend just before the holidays one year, went to Mexico with two college girlfriends, and came back to my sister telling me all about the wonderful time she had skiing with my ex-boyfriend! I only started to put all the pieces of the puzzle together a few years ago after my father died. My sister had set my daughter up a few years prior to his death.
She was complaining to my daughter that our parents said they were willing everything to their grandchildren, and nothing to their four adult children – me, my two brothers and her. She told my daughter not to tell anyone about their conversation, or she would just deny it. So my daughter asked me about it, and I said I doubted that was true, but I later asked my parents about it. They said they thought my daughter was just making that story up. Unbeknownst to me and my daughter at the time, my parents had named my sister the Executor of their Will, so she knew very well who they were willing their estate to.
Anyway, my parents later asked my sister about it and she denied asking about their will but said she and my daughter were just “joking around” that they would probably be giving everything to charity. A few years later my mom called my daughter, who was her very loved and favored grandchild, on the eve of her 30th birthday, and got into a heated argument with her accusing her of telling my sister “Ha ha you’re not getting anything, the other grandkids and I are getting all of the inheritance.”
The story was totally twisted around and my parents believed my sister’s version. My daughter called me hysterically crying that her grandfather had died believing she was after his money. She hasn’t spoken to my mom or my sister since that day. My mom would send her checks for gifts and my daughter refused to cash them. My sister succeeded in severing the very close relationship between my daughter and her grandma. My daughter has lost all trust in the grandmother she once dearly loved. She has told me that she has mourned her grandma’s death, even though she knows she is still alive.
I keep my distance now from my mom – no longer confide in her at all. I am cordial on the phone, but my heart is kept at a distance. I have completely cut ties with my sister as of about 4 yrs ago…funny though, about 2 years ago I find out she is telling people she cut ties with me! Anything to save face!! Forgive me when I say I don’t give a rat’s ass anymore!!! I feel better knowing she is no longer in my life, she’s now nothing more than an unpleasant and distant memory. I feel so stupid for having it take so long to sink in – I spent most of my life thinking I was dealing with a normal person.
Once I concluded her to be a sociopath, it was easy to cut her out of my life. It simply gave me no other choice. But as far as the genetic component – I believe it does run in families. I was helping my mom after my dad passed away going through papers to find his insurance documents. Lo and behold I come upon a social security card in my name along with my college transcript, which I had never seen before! He obtained a duplicate soc sec card and then forged my signature and used that to request a copy of my transcript from the University. But I didn’t even bother to ask my mom about it – all I would get would be lies from her. At least I have learned that much!!
May 7th, 2012 at 19:56
Patti,
Parts of your story are so typical. I spent almost 50 years thinking my family was relatively “normal” (my mom was the only one who really was). Your “distant memory” comment is so true for me, also. I had let go of the thought that I have two sisters and a brother.
Mine is opposite of yours in that regard, as you had one sociopath and three “normal” kids in the family. My three siblings, especially my oldest sister, are sociopaths, and I for whatever reason, am the exact opposite of them. Both my folks are now gone, but it was my dad who brought the “bad gene” into the family. My mom was an angel, so she was treated similar to me … a pariah.
May 8th, 2012 at 18:28
Larry,
Thanks for your supportive comments – it really helps to have my feelings and situation understood and validated by someone who has lived it.
No one else truly understands. My husband, a great guy I have been happily married to for almost 35 years, thought I was a little wacky when all this happened with my family a few years back, but he has since been targeted by a sociopath himself, and now understands what it truly feels like to be the victim of such a creature. As the president of an airport community HOA for two years, he met up with a classic sociopath/con artist…this guy was (still is) a phoney, religious, middle-aged, adolescent, short, roided-up attention-seeker that wanted to expand the airport and build hangars and hangar homes on some property adjacent to the existing airport, sharing the runway.
He’s one of those types that wants to make sure everyone thinks he’s really rich…even leased a Bentley for his fiance (now his 2nd wife, 25 yrs his junior) to drive around (they live at the airport), but after a few months had to turn it in. This guy was and still is showboat phoney all the way!! He’s the stereotypical hillbilly that made a few bucks by stealing someone else’s business out from under him, and then proceeded to blow it all. Anyway, my husband and other board members spent two years, volunteering their time, working with attorneys to draft the contract between the socio and the HOA for this project, and all went well until the socio didn’t want to carry out his end of the contract by paying agreed-upon monies due the HOA.
My husband upheld the interests of the HOA members against this guy and demanded that he pay the scheduled payments. Up until this time, my husband was not aware that he was dealing with a sociopath. Because the guy was very outwardly religious and friendly he had everyone fooled into thinking he was an decent, trustworthy and honorable individual. But soon his fangs came out – but only to those he targeted – my husband (Pres) and the other guy (Treas) who needed to be disposed of. So he carried out a full-blown character assassination of them both. He got his disciples to stand up at meetings and demand that my husband resign as President.
He himself sent my husband nasty emails calling him a “loser”. (My husband is anything but.) He and his disciples falsely accused the Treasurer, who is a man of very high integrity, of embezzling funds from the HOA and called him a “fag” – which he is not. This was all fabricated by the socio and spread around by his disciples, who blindly believed and followed him. Long story short, my husband stuck it out until his term as president was up, he quietly stepped down and he has never had anything to do with the HOA or the offending members since. It left a very bad taste in his mouth for the airport and he plans to move his planes to his hangar at another larger airport soon. He and his friends have since taken great pleasure in watching the socio slowly but steadily go broke…having sold only one (1) of the hangars in over a year’s time.
The real estate market keeps sinking and the bank called his note, so a builder friend of his bought the note and is “buying some time” for the socio, but it is merely delaying the inevitable – financial failure. They say living well is the best revenge, but even better is sitting back and watching a dirtbag socio dig his own grave and then watch him dive into it head-first. And my husband didn’t have to compromise his integrity one bit – as the socio is self-destructing, which according to many experts on the subject is what they very often do, we all plan to just sit back and enjoy the show. Sorry I got a little off the subject of family members, but wanted to share this as it’s another good example of how these creeps operate.
I want to share more about my sister, particularly her behavior after my father passed away a few years ago…will write more another day. Thanks again for sharing your insights.
May 8th, 2012 at 19:52
Wow, I would say your husband was in an terrible situation, but seems to have outsmarted the sociopath and got away from him. That’s the one vitally important task is to get as far away from the psychopath as you can, and if you run into them, walk the other way and say nothing.
This is probably not over for your husband, as the psychopaths don’t know when to quit. You can call the police and get a Criminal Trespass Warning against him. If you ever shows up on you property, quietly call the police and he will be arrested.
Goog luck.
May 8th, 2012 at 21:36
Patti and Larry,
I agree that it is very helpful to share stories and receive validation from others who have gone through similar things. That helps more than anything, actually.
I can attest to a similar experience, Larry, in thinking for decades that my family was fairly normal. I also think…. it would be logical to assume that now that I think differently, that I see things differently… could it not be that I am the deluded one, and I’m just trying to shift blame to my family members? Believe me, I’ve thought of this and did a lot of self questioning about it.
I’m comfortable now, concluding that no — I am the normal one. And they are varying degrees of sociopaths. And sure, it’s all along a continuum and I suppose I have some traits myself through the genetics, but… it’s different. I think it is the lying that sets us apart. I mean, they lie, and I’m earnest. I don’t pretend to be earnest; I actually AM. And when eventually they laugh at me and say they were “only joking,” and didn’t I get the joke? I am honestly bewildered. I mean that I am aware (in retrospect) that they are claiming that they were fooling me all along “as a joke” but I’m bewildered as to why any normal, loving family member would want to pull such a cruel joke (usually it takes the form of pretending some alliance or closeness with me, or getting me excited about doing something or going somewhere) and then blame me for not getting it? Know what I mean? These are like mean practical jokes. Where they are such good actors, I cannot tell that I am being set up. I mean — reaaalllly good actors.
Well, that describes me up until about a year ago. I am no longer bewildered. I still have contact with my family for various reasons, one of which is that I think I want to observe this dynamic for awhile to really see the patterns.
My sister is the most covert and evil one. And my parents do not seem to realize it. My mother is the narcissistic one, and my father is the most unaware and vulnerable to being roped in as a disciple. He just wants us to get along, and periodically he tells me that I have “hurt” my sister in some way and I really should reach out to her (and I’ve done nothing — trust me). I’m feeling very detached from it all, these days. Just watching — seeing it through completely different eyes.
My biggest surprise was in realizing how normal they can seem, even to me, at times. We can have lots of laughs and good times together. But then… weirdness hits, and if I make a point of pointing that out, they all go into some kind of strange denial/gaslighting mode, trying to tell me I didn’t just hear or see what I heard or saw.
I know better, now.
May 8th, 2012 at 21:52
Steph,
Those are some of the cruelest jokes I’ve ever heard … it just evil. How many years have you been putting up with them? Just be careful trying to get close to get a better handle of them. They’ll be showing you their personas, and they may deliberately send you mixed messages, which they seem to already be doing.
Always watch your back.
May 9th, 2012 at 10:25
Larry,
This comment looks “out of order” because a previous comment I posted hasn’t shown up yet. (I had alluded to having a seemingly “normal” family for decades and only recently am seeing them through different eyes: a sociopath sister, a narcissistic/borderline mother, and a disciple father).
These behaviors (including the cruel bait-and-switch jokes at my expense) have been going on all my life, so, nearly 50 years.
The reason I have not cut off contact is because I have been the nice, good, stable daughter who my parents rely on (even though I am a single mom of 3 kids), while my sister has been the unpredictable, volatile one with lots of drama and excitement… I have had a decades-long role of being fairly seemingly “boring” but stable. I don’t know how I could gracefully and suddenly stop that role at this point. My parents are elderly. I have some sympathy for my mother and can’t in good conscience abandon her. I have concerns for my father, to be still a responsible daughter and see to it that both parents are taken care of and hopefully not victimized by my sister who is extremely controlling and sneaky.
I am not fooling myself at all, that when my sister is pleasant, entertaining, helpful, that she “has changed” or that that is the real her. I do not trust her one bit. Kind-hearted and forgiving/tolerant as I am, it took me a long time to get my mind around sociopaths and especially sociopathic family members.
My biggest hope/task right now is that I can convince my parents to find an executor outside of the family — currently my sister and I are named co-executors, and I just do not see that one going very smoothly, when the time comes.
Already, my sister is sneaking stuff out of their house. It is not so much that I want the stuff for myself “one day” but that my parents are slowly going crazy, thinking they are misplacing or losing items — when, in fact, their daughter is stealing them and lying about it. She laughs when she tells me what she has done, and there is this gleeful mirth and sense of entitlement in her voice. I believe she is either showing me her power (to intimidate me), or hopes to turn me into an accomplice, or has not realized that I have her number.
I have not yet figured out what to do. That is why I am sort of sticking around, and observing. I don’t want my parents to be abused by my sister, even though they have these “issues” themselves. My father is not cruel, and my mother is more borderline/lack of empathy but without the cruelty/twisted/sick component which is my sister.
As you all know, this is a hard tale to tell to people who have not lived a similar experience. They cannot “get” how this is like an impossible chess game… that these sociopaths are not normal and do not respond in normal, human ways.
I guess what I mean is, all my life I’ve interacted with everyone I meet (including family) as though they were motivated by normal human impulses, emotions, morals. Because I didn’t realize that sociopathy exists or what it is. Now that I know, I cannot any longer view my sister as human, even though she looks, acts, talks, etc. normal most of the time. So, since I see her differently now, that makes ME the deviant one who must be misguided, or perhaps just not a very nice person to think such ill thoughts of my sister. You know?
May 9th, 2012 at 13:21
Steph,
That is cruel that your family toys with your emotions in such a callous and uncaring way. Their actions show that they apparently don’t appreciate you as a person, daughter, or sibling. As I always say, no one can hurt you like your family. It is so much more painful and destructive coming from those we expect to love and care about us, only to find out how little they actually do. It really feels like a stab in the heart, and sad to say, I am familiar with the pain you are going through.
My sister and parents have caused me a lot of grief throughout my life, but I finally woke up and removed myself from the situation a few years ago. Good for you that you that you have detached yourself emotionally from them. I think that’s the secret to saving yourself from further harm. In all my reading about the subject of emotional abuse I learned that we “teach” people how to treat us by our response to them. If we tolerate their nasty tactics and don’t stand up for ourselves, we get more of the same and it only gets worse. It basically gives them the “green light” to further mistreat us.
You sound a lot like me…giving people the benefit of the doubt, thinking they have good intentions, trying to overlook their insults, etc. But at some point we have to draw the line in the sand and refuse to take any more abuse. And the abusers don’t like that when we are no longer available to them for their games. I think we all get accustomed to the way we are treated in our families and think of it as “normal”. But once we step back and take a good objective look at how the family dynamic is being played out, we suddenly realize what is really going on. Sociopaths, more than anything, just want to “win” at all cost.
The prize they are after may be excluding you from the family, the affections of the parent, to be the favorite, to gain financially. Whatever prize they are after, just let them have it. I believe my sister’s motivation for the past 50 years has always been jealousy of me and wanting the full attention and affection of our parents. She has worked for years trying to put a wedge between my parents and me and now that my dad has passed away 4 yrs ago, has my mom convinced now that she is the only one of her four adult children that cares about her. She has her eye firmly set on the prize, which is now my mom’s money. She has total control over my mom, which is exactly how she wants it.
She has had her name added to my mom’s checking accounts soon after my dad’s death, and has helped her to dissolve the Trust that my father had set up to be equitable to us four siblings. So I have backed off, don’t want anything from my mom. I still talk to her but am very guarded and careful about what I say. Basically she does all the talking about her favorite subject – herself. So that makes it easy to just be her sounding board and not give out any information that could be twisted and used against me later. Sad way to have to deal with a parent that you once loved and trusted, huh. But what other choice do I have??
May 9th, 2012 at 16:25
Steph,
There are no other comments waiting in the queue.
May 9th, 2012 at 18:54
Steph –
I know what you mean about your concern over having to be co-executor with your socio sister. I’m guessing it will more than likely not have a happy ending. She could concoct some illegal schemes and if caught, use you as her scapegoat, or set you up to do her dirty deeds outright. I have a little experience to share on the subject: My sister was named Executor of my parents’ wills, and as soon as my father died, she immediately got her name on my mom’s checking account at the bank. Big Red Flag!!
My mom is clueless when it comes to financial matters, so it gave my sister a good excuse to do this – saying it would be easier for paying bills. My brother and I voiced our objections loudly, but my sister defended her actions and adamantly insisted on keeping her name on the account. Soon after, my sister had asked me to be my mom’s “Limited Agent” on her Vanguard investment fund account. I was pretty skeptical at this point, but went ahead and got signed up to help my mom out. This investment account had the bulk of her estate’s value in it. My mom wanted someone to just keep an eye on the accounts online and let her know how they were doing from time to time.
She is not the least bit computer savvy, so couldn’t do it herself, and didn’t like feeling like the accounts were out of her reach. So I agreed to do it. I no sooner got that set up and was checking on her accounts online when I came across the names on the checking account tied to the fund accounts: Their JOINT bank account!! I had sensed there was something fishy, and this was a HUGE RED FLAG!! Essentially, my mom or my sister could tell me to have some shares redeemed, I would make that request to Vanguard and the money from that transaction would go immediately into this new JOINT checking account – owned by both her and my sister! My sister had assured me that my brothers and I were listed as POD’s (payable on death) beneficiaries of this joint account, but what she failed to mention is that both SHE and our mom would have to BOTH die first before any beneficiaries would get a dime!!
So what this was all about was her using me to funnel everything out of Vanguard and into their joint account, making it essentially hers to spend as she wanted while my mom is still living, and 100% hers once my mom is gone. I was the chosen “pawn” that would unwittingly assist her in funneling all the funds into her possession. This way my sister couldn’t be accused of embezzlement, since I would be the one requesting the transaction of Vanguard. I swear she must have laid awake at night scheming all of the details out! I would be her accomplice and therefore keep my mouth shut lest I be charged with embezzlement along with her. I immediately wrote a letter to Vanguard requesting that my “Limited Agent” designation be terminated and sent a copy to my mom. I had to explain to my mom that because I didn’t trust my sister AT ALL I couldn’t be involved in this setup. She of course prefers to tell people that I refused to help take care of her financial affairs, since she still thinks my sister is white as snow. I just can’t make her understand what she is dealing with, and she really prefers to turn a blind eye to the whole thing.
The next thing my sister did was get my mom to dissolve the Trust that was set up by our dad before he died. My sister apparently thought this would make it easier for her to grab everything for herself. That means now everything will have to go through the probate process to settle the estate. Then next I find out she and mom went to the bank and purchased two Annuities – one had a 7 yr term, the other was 10 yr. My mom was 82 at the time!! So if she happens to outlive the Annuities, she may or may not get all of her money back. They are sold by shady insurance companies that tend to go out of business regularly and find ways to avoid paying out after the maturity date. All of the money is paid into the Annuity up front and if you need your money before the maturity date, you lose a substantial percentage. What a deal!! Anyway, they did this in secret without telling any of the rest of us until about a month later, when my mom mentioned it to me. My brother was alarmed when I told him – he had no idea, and he knew a lot about the pitfalls of annuities. My mom actually lied and told me that both my brothers went with them to the bank and were in on the decision! She is such a liar. I think the motive for buying the Annuities was to lock the money up so that a nursing home or medicare couldn’t get it, since it is considered a form of insurance policy, but they are wise to that scheme. So this gives you an idea of what I have been dealing with – that is before I washed my hands of the whole thing. I just can’t deal with all the lies and don’t trust either of them as far as I could throw them. Since I don’t want any of her money and it causes me way too much stress to be entangled with them, I just bowed out. I would love to help my mom, but really see no way with my sister involved.
I have a lot to lose financially by risking the legal and criminal exposure in being involved with my sister. So I decided to let her “win” – the prize is my mom’s undivided attention, needs, care for her remaining years, and eventual inheritance. The way I look at it, if she handles my mom’s geriatric needs in the coming years, she will have earned every bit of inheritance she gets. I’m actually hoping there’ll be nothing left, but if there is…enjoy!! (Sorry if I am repeating myself here…I just noticed I briefly mentioned some of these points in a previous post.)
September 9th, 2012 at 02:14
No way does bad upbringing create a sociopath. It does create a lot of crap that needs to be dealt with (usually with a good therapist – I’ve spent enough on therapy to buy a car or two).
My father was a sociopath and so I suppose I inherited the gene. It makes me feel blessed that my womb could not carry a child. It’s best if my line ends with me. I’m not a sociopath and am in fact, a lot like Larry, a whistleblower, one who cares maybe too much.
Though there’s an interesting thought I’ve had. While I know I feel emotions, strongly, in fact, despite being a lifer on antidepressants, there are things about me that are different. Perhaps there is a spectrum, as with all conditions and maybe, Larry and I and all of us who were birthed to sociopaths, may be somewhere on a spectrum, far to the left of sociopathy, into the realm of codependency. Certainly, codependency traits have dogged me all my life.
But, here are a couple of things about me that are different. I’m not easily influenced to follow society’s rules. I have personal rules, ethics that I won’t violate, but society doesn’t get to decide what those are. I have a persona, I call it my “urban camouflage”. Few people know that I have chosen to live in a multipartner family (polyamorous) and few know that, though I was raised Southern Baptist, I am a practicing Wiccan (no, not Satanist – do your research). Many would believe me to be a Christian and since Jesus espoused values I can agree with, I don’t correct such misassumptions.
In other words, I am comfortable living a dual life, one for the world, one for myself. I have a personal code that doesn’t allow for intentionally harming others, stealing, cheating or in any way doing what I consider wrong action. And yet, my society does not dictate what my personal code is. Interesting, no?
More times than I can count, I’ve looked in the mirror and wondered, how much of my father is in me? In some ways, very little but my lack of interest in society’s rules, unless they happen to coincide with my own, is likely something from his side. My mother was very dependent on societies POV for her self esteem. I’m not.
If someone finds out about my dual life though, I don’t care anymore (I read the stories here of what sociopaths do when they are uncovered and they just don’t apply to me and my persona). I cared when my stepson was young enough that harm from my choices could have impacted him. He will be eighteen soon, so that no longer applies. Protective mama bear can step back, so to speak.
So, Larry, what do you think about my musings about myself and the possibility that the gene isn’t really an on or off switch?
Terri
September 9th, 2012 at 04:04
Terri,
Very good insight, in my opinion. I’ve never believed it was an on/off switch (it’s a rheostat). I still believe it is genetically hereditary, i.e., passed from one generation to the next. As I refer to it as the “bad gene” I also believe it is the dominant gene. But there are as many faces to psychopathy as there are personalities.
As an example, I recall reading that only 2% of sociopaths resort to violence. But after reading that, I questioned who theorized it was 2%, since so one really knows the extent or levels of psychopathy in the general public.
My personal events about my own family throughout this site are factual, yet the rest is more theory. Most all the information that has been gathered is theory, since there is not 100% common acceptance in the scientific community. Mental issues such as psychopathy in a person can be theorized by us, but we are not in a position to diagnose, even when it seems plain as day. There are other conditions, probably even some yet discovered, that could be the culprit.
I believe everybody has multiple personas. Does that mean everyone is a sociopath … no. It’s human nature. We would not act the same way standing in front of the President and First Lady as we do around the house with family. Hence, I believe, that you recognized you have multiple personas, yet they are not manipulative or deceptive. I call that logical.
It reminds me when I was in line at the grocery store, and a woman stepped backwards onto another person’s foot. She stepped forward quickly and began to excuse herself until she turned to discover it was her son. The remorse disappeared, and she told her son not to stand so closely. No apology, as it was the son’s fault for simply being, or so I interpreted.
In essence, while I read your comment, I agreed with the bulk of it, if not all of it. I was raised in a strict Catholic household and attended parochial schools. It’s definitely a part of my mold, but for the most part, I do not consider myself Catholic any more, and vice versa.
Yet it is difficult to know what I’d be like if I hadn’t had all that experience and training. Generally, I believe that one should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn’t infringe upon, or hurt anyone else. I believe that some people should never become parents. One has to prove themselves worthy to rescue a dog more so than becoming a parent.
From what I see, Terri, you use your brain, you analyze your options, you make your own decisions and assessments. Due to society as a whole, some of your decisions and ethics are kept private. So are mine. I believe the majority are judgmental followers.
I hope I addressed your question.
September 9th, 2012 at 06:18
Larry,
I’m not sure I had a succinct question in there, just musings. The damage I incurred in the short five years of my childhood in which my father and my stepmother (also sociopathic, frankly, often psychotic), certainly contributed in negative and positive ways to who I am today.
I guess I wonder if my genes contribute to my lack of desire to follow society as a whole. Or is it that my childhood was in three parts, each as different from the other as night is to day, that I don’t get easily influenced. I guess seeing that so few people deviate from what they grew up with and seeing that I have deviated so much from what I grew up with, makes me wonder, what’s different with me? I’m not a sociopath but I am a sociopath’s daughter. Perhaps that means nothing (except that I was able to develop an almost sixth sense like ability to suss out emotional tenor and know, with great certainty, when I’m in the presence of a sociopath and how to be invisible to them), perhaps it means something. I’ve no idea, hence the reason my questions are so vague.
Next week, I start back to therapy, this time to work on my family of origin stuff around my stepmother, so finding this site has been quite timely for me.
Thanks,
Terri